Roger Penrose is physicist, mathematician, and philosopher at University of Oxford. He has made fundamental contributions in many disciplines from the mathematical physics of general relativity and cosmology to the limitations of a computational view of consciousness. This conversation is part of the Artificial Intelligence podcast.
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EPISODE LINKS:
Cycles of Time (book):
The Emperor’s New Mind (book):
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OUTLINE:
0:00 – Introduction
3:51 – 2001: A Space Odyssey
9:43 – Consciousness and computation
23:45 – What does it mean to “understand”
31:37 – What’s missing in quantum mechanics?
40:09 – Whatever consciousness is, it’s not a computation
44:13 – Source of consciousness in the human brain
1:02:57 – Infinite cycles of big bangs
1:22:05 – Most beautiful idea in mathematics
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I really enjoyed this conversation with Roger. Here's the outline:
0:00 – Introduction
3:51 – 2001: A Space Odyssey
9:43 – Consciousness and computation
23:45 – What does it mean to "understand"
31:37 – What's missing in quantum mechanics?
40:09 – Whatever consciousness is, it's not a computation
44:13 – Source of consciousness in the human brain
1:02:57 – Infinite cycles of big bangs
1:22:05 – Most beautiful idea in mathematics
34:25 "And then I went to this course by Durak" I wonder if the Russian interviewer gently laughs because in Russian 'durak' (дурак) means idiot.
Thanks Lex for the great interview to Sir Roger!
This podcast is awesome, not religious but somethings have made me question everything I'd ever known. Got me digging into Enoch the past the Egyptians etc. I think people have been directed and guided from entities from the start and still are. Problem is society lost its connection to the divine when they lost their connections to themselves. The eyes only see what the mind is willing to comprehend.
Hahahaha, why haven't we heard anything from our alien friends? Because we don't know how to look.
Incredible podcast, particularly the conversation about infinity expanding into a boundary, and the cyclical big bangs. Interestingly, I think that could tie into the earlier references to wave functions, but I'm not smart enough to figure that one out. Truly mindblowing.
Awesome, I’m a bit late to the party but I was really hoping you would get Penrose at some point, thank you so much! Hope you are well Lex
Yes. This is the perfect kind of interview I would like to see more on youtube. Thanks for the upload.
You are fortunate to have gotten to speak to penrose. He is one of the most intelligent people alive.
Could it be that the key to understanding consciousness more, is paramount on understanding the awareness of other creatures? You can teach some Apes sign language. They're ultimately aware enough to be able to ask for food, and other things. I wonder if the further we go, we'll figure out that communication will open more doors.
But then saying that, there's so many different types of consciousness. I suppose the one we talk about the most is the ability to be 'self-aware'. When a robot 'knows' it's a robot, surely that'll be the point of technological singularity.
Great guest, great talk. Congrats! If Richard Feynman is around that would be another choice to see an interview with 🙂 but pick alive thinker IMHO to see an interview with Yuval Harari 🙂
my late father would have loved this, thanks Lex
Eventually there will be just a Fog with no sense of Time or Space. All is equal, until a Word is spoken.
Proto consciousness? That must be the microtubule-Trump.
I think we should apply consciousness, consideration, fantasy, poetry unto both Gödel and Schrödinger, and thus, their equations, because the standard model is just that: Standard. Let's consider our approch.
His favorite movie is 2001, and the monolith is meaningless to him.
Amazing how shallow these pop "intellectuals" can be.
I’m going to say it….WoW! This stuff is truly joyful.
He’s a bit of a rambler isn’t he. I wonder if he thinks his smartphone is loyal to him?
I know mine is I know it protects me from actions that would have harmful consequences.
Does he think google translate has consciousness ?
For me the flaw in the argument that consciousness develops only at a certain point in in the material construction of the conscious object ( a central plank of evolution theory of course) is that the behaviour patterns of the object « pre-consciousness » and « post- consciousness” remain consistent.
You have to read- or watch the sequel to 2001-2010 ,to find out why HAL became paranoid.
Is Let taking voice coaching from HAL
If I were an advanced civilization, one of the first things I would want to control is who gets to see me and who doesn't. I would most definitely want to be invisible to a civilization such as earth's. Any war-happy civilizations would be denied knowledge of my existence. Perhaps this idea answers the question "where are they, why don't we see them?"
Wow wow wow stop Mr. Penrose! Consciousness "comes along" is partially right. It develops and improves in humans and "comes along" with being born and "learning". Your piece of music is a very good example. First you need to be "conditioned" to control the fingers. It feels like fighting against your brain. After that you don't have to "think" about left and right hand motions any longer – it becomes "subconscious". That's where you can start improving your expressive skills until they become "subconscious". A real musician can hear and judge potential skills, but has to consider your age.
Consciousness is not "god given" it's "learned" and improved over a lifetime.
Lex is an AI, correct?
how does he manage to keep his mind so sharp over the years?
Duality of computation, ⭕️ < I < ♾, is a consequence of singularity of consciousness, ⭕️ = I = ♾, is the eventuality in the duality of computation, ♾ > I > ⭕️.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10211637611444806&id=1502021715&anchor_composer=false
This guy is a true genius. Amazing to hear his wealth of knowledge.
I'm aware of this man for his Generalised Inverse called the Moore-Penrose Inverse, which I learnt during a course which has been beating my entitled ass to a pulp.
What a precious man.And marvelous conversation.Ifeel blessed.Thank you So much,Lex Fridman.Blessings to these two men.And love.Nadja.
How do we know general anesthesia turns off contentiousness, couldn't it be true that it just makes you forget what you been through? I'm not trying to be smart this is just a hard question to google so tell me if you know 🙂
worst introductions on youtube.
its just his thing i guess….and he's sticking to it
lol, there is a big problem that scientists have with gravity, but it has nothing to do with his understanding of entropy
Joining inner perspectives with the sciences . . .
Consciousness, Science, and Mental Health
Inner Cosmos: Consciousness Academy of Science and Spirituality (CASS), since November 22, 2015, features informational posts from the global community related to consciousness and the science of, health, and the workings of right-minded lifestyles, communication, highs and lows of life, trust and compassion vs. hate and blame, the workings of our universe related to consciousness, our evolution as a humanity. . . and more; much much more.
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Consciousness explained might include and describe all the derivatives of consciousness. The term repressed was used by Sigmund Freud in the context of a dynamic conception of the unconscious. Repressed elements, which remain active in the unconscious, constantly tend to reappear into consciousness in derived formations that are unrecognizable to varying degrees: These are the "derivatives" of the unconscious that also appear in the forms of symptoms, fantasies, or free associations in the course of analysis.
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Describing a consciousness mechanics includes advancing our understanding the ego of guilt, suffering, greed, hate and sadness, shame and fears of judgement as well as spiritual enlightenment . . . awareness, joy, love, empathy, compassion, and also grace, faithfulness, spiritual innocence, guiltlessness, loving calm, and we wonder of course about the always creating and peaceful godly magnificence.
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Shared … Physics of Consciousness and the Infinite Universe
Roger Penrose: AI Podcast #85 with Lex Fridman
https://www.facebook.com/groups/CASS.Inner.Cosmos/permalink/1933834773417156/
Animals are conscious
Great interview all 'round. Some things come to mind: 1. What I experience as a composer is that I know all the rules but am aware in a non-verbal, artistic way where I want to do something novel or beautiful that can only be achieved by going beyond them, or at least beyond how I would conventionally apply these rules. This kind of meta-awareness is what makes being truly creative possible, and it is understood by the listener. I suspect that is why there is such value in the sciences placed on the elegance or beauty of new scientific and mathematical expressions, where the meta-creative leap along with an aesthetic aspect are like markers for the correctness and truth of the idea. 2. I think for consciousness to be effective it must be tied to something that is an organism, or at least like an organism, where the parts are there for the whole and the whole is orientated towards activity and generates motions that sustain it and support its growth and development. Living things that have a metabolism are what we are all familiar with as examples, and whether anyone can simulate a living thing computationally is I think very doubtful. 3. The Turing test has always seemed very problematic to me because it posits that it is enough to give the impression of consciousness for it to be deemed to be like consciousness.